Pillar – Interviewer Best Practices With Mark Simpson

William Tincup: [00:00:00] This is William Tincup and you are listening to the Use Case podcast. Listen, we have Mark from Pillar on, and our topic today is Interviewer Best Practices. And so Mark’s been a, a guest before, so we have actually a, a pretty nice relationship going back and forth, so this is gonna be a lot of fun and it’s gonna be really fast.

So Mark, would you do us a favor and introduce yourself and Pillar.

Mark Simpson: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you everyone for, for listening to me again. Um, my name is Mark Simpson. I’m the c e o [00:01:00] of Pillar. Uh, pillar is an interview intelligence platform. So we’ve got quite a bit of good data around, uh, best practices in, in, in interviews.

Um, and William, I’m pleased to be, uh, talking about it a bit with you today.

William Tincup: Yeah, so I mean, I, I, first of all, y’all swag is like one of the best, if not the best in the industry. So if the listeners are my, my kids fight over your stuff, it’s so good. So that, that’s, that’s, that’s the litmus test for, for, for swag.

Mark Simpson: I, I know it’s good when my 14 year old daughter has her friends asking you to expertise.

William Tincup: Exactly. That’s how you. That’s how, you know. So, um, let’s start with, uh, kinda the basics around what you’ve seen. So you, you, you brought to market pillar, uh, because there was a real need in the marketplace around kind of standardization and kind of, uh, building breast practices, but also building technology that enables, uh, those things.

So why did, why did you come to market and what did you see as the market opportunity? And, and then let’s kind of fast forward [00:02:00] into, uh, some of the things that you help clients with, uh, regarding I.

Mark Simpson: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so the, the, the fundamentals of the business were, were built around. You know, we, we truly believe that great businesses are built around great teams.

Um, and, um, we are, um, helping our customers. Build the very best teams that they can, um, through, you know, really improving that stage of the process where you are bringing people into an organization. But that stage of the process where you are both evaluating and selecting, um, the right people to actually, um, offer, offer jobs to, and bring, bring them into the team.

And, um, that’s really, really exciting because we feel we’re having a material impact on, uh, on the outcomes of, of businesses by, by doing so. Um, so we’ve enjoyed, um, sort of. Lots of companies over the last couple of years, um, and, uh, and continue to do so. And we are seeing sort of really big, uh, really big improvements in both, [00:03:00] um, operational efficiency and, you know, the, the ability to interview, uh, better and faster and take time out of the hiring end process, but also, um, on quality of hire and things like first six month attrition rates and, and tho those sorts of things as well.

So having, having some really big and ni nice impacts there.

William Tincup: Everyone listening to this has had a bad interview and has probably given a bad interview, right? So, so, you know, there, there’s this, there isn’t news in, in terms of that. But I was talking to somebody recently, uh, about biases actually. We, she was, she’s writing a book, uh, and, and it was all about biases.

And I asked her the question, I said, what’s, what’s the difference between bias and preference? And she goes, preference is the way you justify bias.

Mark Simpson: I’m like,

William Tincup: wow. First of all, very dark. Yeah, that got dark fast. But, uh, but she’s right as I, as I thought about it, and so we talked about interviews and I said, I’ve made so many mistakes.

[00:04:00] Looking back at my career, I’ve made so many mistakes on just. Not, like not having a great process, like every job was kind of disjointed. Uh, not, not having standard standards, uh, in terms of the number of people that they meet, things like that. And also just the question set, like by the time I would get to the interview, I asked really esoteric questions, which.

Useful at all. Like, what’s your favorite Beatles album? Like that, that, that, that’s not useful at all. But that’s, I found myself doing that type of stuff. So I know you got a bunch of horror stories and you got a bunch of success stories too, but, so let’s, let’s start with the, the process itself. What, what, what’s fundamentally broken in the interview process?

Mark Simpson: Yeah. Well actually, just, just to highlight your example, we, we see bias happen all the time, um, in the interviews that we look at, and when, when we dig into the data, um, you know, we, we see things like, um, so, uh, we see gender bias happen quite a lot. So [00:05:00] women facing just more questions, but actually getting less time to speak in interviews because they’re being spoken overall or, or not getting as much speaking time.

So, um, so completely agree on. You know, having a bit more standardization, um, in the process, um, uh, is, is a, is a really good thing. And just, just having some of the basics outlined. You know, the stuff you can read on the internet and we’ve got eBooks about it and, and what have you as well. But, um, you know, the basics of a good interview, you know.

Having, having done your prep and, you know, reading the candidate’s resume and, uh, but knowing what your role is in the interview team and what skills you are assessing at your stage of interview and what are the questions you are gonna ask and the good questions to assess those skills. And, and then really thinking about what is the right structure of interview and, uh, and very importantly, making sure you’re assessing all the candidates in a similar way.

You’re asking similar questions, you’re asking about the same skills, uh, because that’s your role in the process. I think having just some of those basics we see. Biases drop quite significantly. Um, so, um, [00:06:00] and just being able to sort of go back and review, and review your interviews and review other people’s interviews, I think is, is sort of really interesting in improving your processes.

So, so few people have had, you know, really good ongoing interview training.

William Tincup: So the, the tech itself, where do you see tech, both now but also in the future, helping that process? I mean, obviously like, I love the, the, the video, being able to watch someone’s interview. I might see something completely different.

I wasn’t in the room, they asked the exact same question, so we, we got that part right. Uh, in terms of standardization. But the answer that the person gave, I, I would have a different response to it. Like, I like that answer. That was a great answer. And, and my peer. I thought it was a horrible answer, like now we can have a discussion.

It becomes kind of collaboration software at that point where we can collaborate on an interview as opposed to in a silo, one person interviews and then they like, like God or King, they then make the decision, uh, on whether or not that was good or bad. So I like that, but where else do you see technology kind of [00:07:00] helping enable great interview.

Mark Simpson: Yeah. No, I, I, I, I love that just, just having that transparency and, and having the candidate represent themselves in their voice rather than, uh, rather than making a judgment call voice here is, is, is really, is, is really good. And, and kind of is, is, is just fundamental to, to good interviewing, um, you know, With the, you know, if you’re talking sort of and narrowing down just on the technology, we, we can actually sort of start seeing what are good, best practices of interviews.

So, you know, we could take a structure of an interview and start, uh, and start saying, well actually, you know, having no more than a five minute introduction is, is kind of best practice and giving the candidate. You know, somewhere between seven and 10 minutes to ask questions at the end is, is best practice.

And everything in between should be really focused on, um, on sort of asking the candidates questions and, and those sorts of things in, in an average sort of hiring manager type interview, screening calls slightly different in different formats, but, um, but you know, just running an interview with a, with a good structure, um, is, is, [00:08:00] is gonna enable you to be able to get the right information that, that you need to be able to assess the candidate in the right way.

As well as giving, um, given that, uh, you know, the can, um, good enough opportunity to be sold on the role as well. Um, and that, and that actually kind of springs forward into kind of some of the newer technology that we are, we are bringing to market around. Um, you know, is the Canada actually leaving with a positive impression from the interview, you know, based on their sentiment.

Oh, that’s,

William Tincup: Yeah. Do you think, do you see that as ratings, like them rating the interviewer? Like, I can, I could see this kinda play in a lot of different ways, but it, uh, you, you tell us like, what would you want, what do you want out of the interviewee to learn to get better? Uh, yeah.

Mark Simpson: Yeah. So, um, I mean we, we can definitely, um, we can def, we could definitely take in, in ratings, but we can actually, you know, technology can actually read candidate’s sentiment.

Um, so, you know, just, just the sentiment in what they’re saying and how they’re saying it. Um, and you can see when a candidate comes in, what their [00:09:00] sentiment is, and you can see how that sentiment changes through an interview. Um, and you can see how they leave, um, and what, what that level of sentiment is.

And we see. You know, probably one in four interviews, which is quite a high proportion where the candidate is actually less keen on the role as they exit the interview when they, when they are, when they, when they come in. So, um, really interesting information. But the, the, the beauty of that is you can now dig into, What has been spoken about and when you changed to a certain topic, why did that sentiment dive or why did it increase?

And, um, and you can get really good sort of information back on, um, on, you know, why certain people pitched the role in some way and other people pitched a role in another way, and what, what is the, the better way to do that for the candidate? So, um, uh, so, you know, lots of, lots of sort of interesting, um, uh, information that can be drawn out of interviews now just to make the entire recruiting process.

Much more efficient and much more effective.

William Tincup: Right, right, right, right. So what’s, what’s been your experience, experience right [00:10:00] now with like chatbots and, uh, again, not necessarily pro or con, but just basically your experience with the way our industry looks at chatbots as a, as is, is either being a part of the interview process or, uh, screening on the front end of the process.

Like what’s your, just your general. Yeah, it, it’s,

Mark Simpson: it’s not, it’s not an area where we get, um, uh, involved in William, but, um, you know, and I think it, it’s, um, it’s clearly, um, applicable in certain roles, but not, but not others. Um, right. So, um, I think, I think they work really effectively. Uh, both for the Canada and for the company in, um, you know, maybe some of the more hourly worker type roles, hundred percent, those, those sorts of things.

But when you get into, um, you know, uh, recruiting more senior level people or, or what have you, then uh, um, it can be a big discouragement to, uh, uh, to.

William Tincup: That’s, that’s my take to as well is like, again, kind of being mobile first with the hourly high volume mark market, being [00:11:00] mobile first and having something that’s really easy to kind of integrate.

Do you want, you know, to work in this location is the pay is 1875. Like, you know, that type of stuff I think is super, uh, easy and effective for that market. But I can’t see a, you know, cmo, you know, interacting with a chat. Now, I might be wrong in time. I might be, that might be wrong. Uh, uh, that might be a wrong sentiment.

There. There might be the option of, do you want to talk to a person or do you wanna talk to a chatbot? And, and then allowing people, uh, to do that. You, you had said something pretty, pretty sure that I thought was fascinating in terms of like the number of questions. That you should kind of, as you standardize your process, and then you obviously have technology and you’re getting feedback, but you had, you had mentioned this and that.

I had never really thought about it. It’s like, okay, how long should an interview be? And, you know, how long, I’m assuming a lot of these interviews are happening over Zoom, uh, or, or maybe not in [00:12:00] person. Um, what’s your, what’s your take on just how long and the questions and that, that type of, what’s, what are you seeing in the.

Yeah, so,

Mark Simpson: so the, the, the, the data’s telling us that kind of re recruiter screenings, um, are obviously, um, shorter, um, in terms, in terms of minutes, um, than, than when you get into hiring manager and, and the interview team. Um, so, uh, recruiter screenings can be really anywhere between sort of 15 and 30 minutes.

Um, and actually the talk time is much more sort of 50 50 between, um, the recruiter and the Canada in those types of screenings. Part of it is, Telling them about the role and part of it is the candidate telling you about, about themselves and then judging that sort of initial fit as you get, as you get past the screening.

Um, actually sort of, you know, better practices to go slightly longer on interviews. So, um, you know, 30 minutes is a tight timeframe to get the information that you need. It’s much better to look at sort of 45 minutes to an hour. Um, and particularly if you are gonna. Group interviews or [00:13:00] panel interviews than, than, uh, than than that longer period of time.

Is, is cer certainly necessary? I think what’s interesting is, is just out of the data is looking at things like, um, you know, how many questions you, you, you should really ask in order to, um, get a good assessment of a candidate. So, You know, over the course of an hour, really, you know, eight questions or eight topics should be asked about, um, of, of the candidate.

Otherwise, you’re not really, uh, as a minimum really, otherwise you’re not really getting into and assessing whether the candidate is the right fit for the role, and I think importantly as well. At least two of those topics, or two of those questions should have at least two follow up questions, and you should be going two levels deeper in that to actually, you know, uncover the right information, um, that, that you need to assess, to assess someone’s skills.

So, you know, I think, you know, the guidelines would be minimum of eight questions an hour. Minimum of two of those, um, where you are doing at least two follow up questions. Um, on, on those, on those eight topics that you’re talking about, as as a guide, [00:14:00]

William Tincup: do you, do you, do you give them the topics in advance?

Like do you I’ve, I’ve, I’ve made mistakes here. So I’ve, I’ve done this where it’s completely blindsided, uh, folks, but I’ve also, uh, at, at times said, here’s what we’re gonna talk. And giving them kind of a, just a guide, like, here’s the topics that I wanna talk about. You bring your list and then we’ll, we’ll kind of hash it out from there.

Yeah, what’s your take

Mark Simpson: there? I, I think it’s important to, to manage the interview and I think what, what you are touching on there is kind of interview management. So if you’ve got a certain amount of time of an interview and you want to cover a certain amount of topics, it’s making sure the candidate is aware that they shouldn’t go on one topic and speak for 30 minutes solid.

And, uh, so, so that, that, that sort of interview management, I think is. Use good practice and depends a little bit on the candidate that you have, um, on the other side of the, the zoom screen or the other side of the other side of the table. Um, but, um, yes, setting out the plan for the interview and, um, and giving the candidate, um, you know, some reasoning as to.[00:15:00]

Why you’re asking what you’re doing and keeping it kind of a bit more conversational is, is, uh, is, is certainly best practice. So, William, I’m sure based on listening to a lot of your podcast, you were a very, very good interviewer.

William Tincup: Oh, I could tell you some stories. Well, um, I, I, in fact, I wanna tell you this one story, uh, because I realized that I was talking too much.

In an interview. So when you mentioned the 50 50, uh, this is a hundred years ago, but I’m, I, I realized I was kinda like dominating and it didn’t matter if it was a male or female or anything. It was just me talking. Um, and one day really hype up the job and tell ’em how excited and, and you know, lot of that stuff.

I, I actually brought a clock. I brought like one of those little timers like that she used for cooking and I brought it into the interview thing and I would tell candidates, I’m like, I have this clock here, not for. But for me so that I don’t talk too much. So I love it. I love it. It’s like this and, and, and I look at the clock [00:16:00] like it was clock and, and it’s timing down.

It’s going down. It’s like, okay, I, I can’t, I gotta shut up. And, and it, it actually helped me. I mean, joking aside, it actually helped me go, okay, it’s your time to talk to please talk and now stop the. I love that.

Mark Simpson: That that’s great. And, and look, you were, you were, were Ava. I mean, now, now, you know, pillar would tell you that if you talk too much candid sentiment drops.

That’s right. Um, so you, you were just, you were just head of the game there, William. I, I, I love that.

William Tincup: What do you, what do you see with, uh, yeah. In-person versus, uh, uh, zoom or, or just not in person, however that else that’s done. Um, is there, is there any advice that you give clients that’s d. Is it the same whether or not they come in your office or whether or not they’re across the world and you’re doing it over Zoom?

Um,

Mark Simpson: no. It, it, it’s pretty similar. I mean, you want the candidate to have a, a great experience. Uh, I mean, in person, you’ve obviously gotta think about, you know, What you’re wearing and the impression you’re giving and, [00:17:00] uh, you know, offering them water and all, all those sorts of things that you don’t need to think about virtually, but the actual practicalities of, of the interview itself, um, you know, making sure you’re asking sort of a, around a standard set of skills that, that you want for the role and you are asking very similar questions and you’re managing the interview, um, you know, timeframes and, and, and questions in, in the right way.

Really rings true, no matter whether that’s in person or whether that’s virtual. So, uh, um, so no, I think the best practice, um, when it, when it comes to it is, is best practice. Um, no matter what the medium is.

William Tincup: So, so collaborate. I said collaboration software earlier, and I, I mean, it, it’s, it’s, it’s a wonderful way for.

Multiple people, uh, in a process to look at one thing and, and kind of I discuss it, like I have a call and actually say, okay, this is what I saw, this is what I feel, et cetera. Um, how do you, how does that, how do you think that plays out or how does that play out with your clients? The, that collaborative part around interviewing?

Uh, and I’ll ask that question. I’m gonna ask you a recruiter hiring manager question after that. [00:18:00] Yeah,

Mark Simpson: sure. Um, and we see it all the time. Um, so as, um, as, as part of what, what we do, we create kinda highlight clips of, um, o of interviews, just things like we can break an interview down into kinda questions asked and answers given and subject matter spoken about and, and tho those sorts of things.

And when we actually. Um, we actually sort of, uh, um, will do that automatically. Our, our ai, um, does that and we, we see those being emailed around all, all the time. So things like recruiters will do screenings and they’ll send three clips to hire managers to get immediate feedback rather than waiting for them to interview someone and getting feedback and adjusting a jobs spec or whatever it is.

And you know, that, that, that collaboration between. Recruiter and hiring managers just gets much, much closer. We then see it, you know, the other end of the scale as well, not just at the beginning of the interview process, but actually in things like the decision making, you know, so a hiring manager will be able to go in and, and look at the skills they wanted for the role and be able to replay candidate’s answers around those skills so they [00:19:00] can just understand the candidates fit for the role.

And, um, out of all, all, all of the candidates they, that they have interviewed. Um, and just enables candidates to. Speaking in their own voice throughout the process. And I, I’ll, I’ll give you, um, I’ll give you an example, um, as well here, here, William, of, of, of that, you know, I hired, um, uh, our head of growth at Desa, um, this time last year actually.

Um, and she was the first person that I interviewed. I thought she was great. She was c e of and company. Company, right? Um, in diversity recruiting. And, um, you know, had, had all the skills that I really wanted for the role. This was the first candidate I, I, So I went through two weeks of, uh, of interviewing other candidates and probably 50 other meetings and, uh, you know, lot, lots, lots of busyness in, in, in building, building a company.

And the last person I interviewed, I thought he was great. I, I like genuinely he’d done the role before, um, was, was kind of a perfect fit. Answered every question really well, and I was ready. He’s put an offer out on, on that person and, um, I went, I went back into [00:20:00] Pillar and, uh, you know, I reviewed ADI answers.

So I run a. Interview process. We try and we try and practice what we preach, and I reviewed ADIs answers against these candidate’s answers, and I’ve just forgotten I’d forgotten how strong Adisa was. Um, and you know, that recency bias was so strong when we all lead such busy lives, um, that, you know, just giving candidates a chance and then making sure that you are hiring the best candidate can sometimes actually slip.

So I nearly fell foul, foul of it myself, but I was very pleased that, uh, we did hire the right person in the end. And Adisa

William Tincup: is. Well, it’s, it’s really interesting you mentioned that because we, I was talking the other day about all the different, when I went through all the SHERM testing, the certification stuff, they, they, they outline all the different hiring biases in, in their testing and the, the like me bias and the recency bias, all those types of things.

What’s, what’s kind of your role or pillar’s role with your customers in kind of teaching them? Because you know, you don’t know what you don’t know. And like I’ve written, uh, before about music bias and about tattoo bias and about, uh, these types of things and [00:21:00] just random, random types of things and, you know, you just don’t think about on a day-to-day basis, but what do you, what’s, what’s, what’s pillar’s responsibility as it relates to your customers, maybe even larger market in terms of.

Kind of educating them as to this goes on, whether or not it goes on to your firm or not. This goes on, here’s what it is. Here’s how to, here’s how to look for it.

Mark Simpson: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so it, it’s very easy to start recognizing the bias when there’s transparency put around a process, right? Um, and even if you don’t recognize it in, in your, in yourself, in, in, in what you do once, once things are recorded and, um, once things are discussed and shared around actual sort of data, the, the reality of, of what, of what’s happened, um, things, those, those sort of things come to the service quite quickly and, and actually they’re really easy to just adjust and, and correct to.

We have a lot of kind of best practice and training around, uh, around bias and running good interviews and running unbiased and fair and equitable processes, which we, we have within the platform and we have within, uh, within our [00:22:00] knowledge centers. Um, and, uh, you know, when you pair that up with just being able to review both yours and also the rest of your hiring teams kind of clips around how they ask questions and what, what questions they’re asking.

Um, you know, that, that you. Makes you sit back and think, because perhaps you haven’t sat back, sat back and thought about, you know, are, are you, uh, are you asking the right questions in, in, in the right way? And, um, I think those things actually fix fairly quickly once you start thinking about them. I think people just don’t generally, uh, think that they have any biases and, and don’t think about fixing them.

So the question

William Tincup: I was gonna ask you about recruiters and hiring managers is how they, how Pillar helps them kind of bring that together. So let’s, so again, you know, recruiters, they get a job description and they do an intake form and like great recruiters do this bit where they’ll go, okay, you’ve placed these 80 things on the list.

Granted what, you know, what’s the five things that you have to have. Got it. Okay. Good. After the fact, they kind of get to some type of simpatico where they see the world the [00:23:00] same. Okay, but what’s the relationship once the interviews, once they go through the interviews, and what’s that relationship for with recruiters and hire managers?

What’s the optimal kind of a, okay, here’s what we, here’s what we see. We took, you know, 12 people through the process and here’s what we see, and like, how do they, how do, how best should they communicate and interact with each other, with the I.

Mark Simpson: Yeah. So, um, and I think you hit the nail on the head early in this conversation.

Uh, William, when, when you said that they, they collaborate much tighter, um, when there is transparency in video backing up, backing up the process. Um, so, you know, I gave, I gave the example of. You know, just recruiters getting feedback from hiring managers much quicker. Um, you know, not having to wait for a couple of weeks for the first interview to be scheduled after they’ve found a slate of candidates.

But actually as they’re doing screenings, just being able to share clips and get that feedback and, um, and, you know, work in a much tighter way, um, with, with their hiring managers, you know, [00:24:00] much more teamwork working together than, uh, than perhaps, uh, than perhaps, you know, a, a kind of supplier and provider, uh, type, type relationship.

But that goes through the entire process. So you think about, Um, you know, how recruiters can now facilitate, you know, conversations with the interview team around, um, the leading candidates for the role and who, who should be chosen for, for the role. Um, you know, based around actual data, based around the skills that have been interviewed for.

And, um, you know, how, how you know, well the candidates have achieved those skills and, and, uh, and their behavior around those skills, um, um, that they’ve demonstrated through, through the interview process. And just having the recruiter being able to facilitate a much more. Factual conversation. Um, within, within, within that part of the process, again, is just providing so much more, so much richer knowledge and data to the hiring manager to, to be able to make, make those, those decisions.

So really I think it goes through the whole process from beginning to end that, um, they’re just working much more in step with each other, um, through, [00:25:00] uh, um, and, uh, which in turn speeds up the process and means that hiring can happen, you know, by doing less interviews and, uh, and actually, um, you. A lot quicker.

On average, I think we remove sort of two to three weeks from the hiring process. Well, that

William Tincup: also impacts quality and retention, right? If we do all this, all that stuff, uh, correctly. So my gut tells me that most recruiters and hiring managers think they’re good interviewers.

Mark Simpson: So I think, I think everyone thinks, I think everyone thinks they’re a

William Tincup: good interview.

I’m gonna go out on a limb. All right. And, and, and, and I’m a, I’m just gonna say that. Right? Or they think they are. So how do y’all, you know, how do you kind of help them when, because they’re, they’re reaching out to you for a reason. Maybe they realize they have a problem, um, or maybe they just know that interviews need to be done differently.

So how, how do you kind of get ’em in the mindset of understanding? It’s not so much that you’re doing it wrong, it’s just there’s a better.

Mark Simpson: Yeah, I, I mean, look, I, I think there, there was a survey years and years ago, wasn’t it? William Wear, I think they surveyed, um, drivers of cars and I [00:26:00] think, wasn’t it, 90% of people put themselves in the top 10% of drivers?

And I think it’s pro probably the same. They’re probably the same in interviewing. Probably 90% of people probably say they’re in the top 10% of interviewers as well. Uh, but there’s there, I mean, for, for the first time, I think there’s actually sort of data now sort of backing up, you know, Whether you are running a good interview and how you’re running an interview and you can see candidate’s sentiment throughout the interview and, um, and it, it just facilitates a little bit of a different conversation because it’s, it’s not one person’s opinion against another.

Um, there’s actually data behind, you know, did the candidate leave the interview? With a more positive impression about, about the company and about the role or not. Um, and what could we do to, to improve that if, if there are areas which need, which need training and need, uh, need improving. So, you know, with real data sort of backing up, um, you know, the, the quality of interview and the structure of interview and those sorts of things, it just makes those conversations much, much easier to, to have, um, and actually, you know, [00:27:00] for those people, Um, who are maybe less experienced interviewers or, um, haven’t interviewed as much or, or maybe less confident in the interviewers.

It just gives them some, a benchmark to work towards to improve their interviews and, um, and, and run better interviews and, and ultimately then, then hire better candidates because of that.

William Tincup: Well drops Mike and walks off stage. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been wonderful. I, I literally, we could have talked forever.

Um, so we’ll, we’ll, we’ll figure out what our next chapter in this book is gonna be, but Mark, I know you’re crazy busy with the business and everything, so just thank you for your time and dropping knowledge on

Mark Simpson: the audience. No, thank you William, and thank thanks for everyone listening. It’s been fantastic.

Again.

William Tincup: Well, and thanks for everyone listening to the show. We’ll see you next on.